Is the 4* tier dead?

Marvel Puzzle Quest MPQ General Discussion
1

I have seen this argument on occasion and to be honest, I don’t quite understand it.

For one thing, I don’t think the majority of the players are 5* players so I imagine 4* characters still play a significant part for a good portion of the player base (I see a lot of 4* level rosters utilizing Juggs for example). But I also don’t buy the argument that 4* characters add little variety for 5* players. Before the arrival of Kitty, PvP was for the most part a sea of Okoye/Thor teams. Fast forward to the end of 2019 and now I see: Kitty/Grocket, JJ/Bishop, and Worthy Cap/Hawkeye teams in addition to the 5* pairs of Okoye/Thor and Iceman/Prof X.

At least from my own personal observations, I am seeing a greater variety of competitively viable teams being used in PvP than ever before.

Now I understand there are some players who believe that a team of two 5* characters should always trump a 5*/4* pairing considering the difficulty in acquiring 5* characters but if the goal is to maximize the amount of fun for the most amount of players then this middle road approach seems to be the best one. Not every player can keep up with the 5* release schedule and in spite of the dilution issue, it is still easier to champ a 4* character than a 5* character.

Is it a perfect system? No. Dilution is a significant issue that needs to be addressed. There are a variety of possible solutions such as rotating drop rates based on team affiliations or as in the Evergreen tokens power colors, developing new events that give greater access to 4* covers/shards, update to the rewards structure and so on.

But what I am trying to understand is what people who make this argument about the 4* tier expect. If a 4* character power set does nothing noticeably significant they are written off as a waste of roster space. In contrast, if a 4* character power set does something that impacts the meta, they are called broken. I think the problem lies in the conceptualization that the different tiers should operate separately from each other, specifically with each higher tier clearly dominating the preceding tiers, which I believe is bad game design.

The goal should be to intermesh the different tiers to expand possible strategies and thus the meta and I believe the 4* tier still has an important role to play in that regard. For example, Rogue was the MVP of my team for the Evergreen event. Her ability to lock out the other’s team ability to gain green and the other effects of her Power Siphon ability really let her shine. If anything we need more variety in PvP and PvE event styles that give opportunities for new strategies and game play dynamics.

The argument that new characters invalidate all prior characters only holds true under standard game play modes and is not a unique problem to the 4* tier. The same arguments can be made in all tiers. Granted, the 5* tier has notably slowed down on the power creep and instead embraced a lateral expansion of the top tier which I think has been a smart move as it allows more players to participate in higher tiers of play. And a key part of that expansion has been 4* characters.

So I am struggling to understand what is meant when people say “the 4* tier is dead.” Are you suggesting the dev team stop making 4* characters? What characters would players chase then? 5* characters? How would that shift appeal to casual players and people who are not 5* players? Dilution would still be a problem and there will still be characters released that don’t do anything remarkable in terms of the meta. But on top of that, the situation would worsen for non-competitive players. Progress for them while now perhaps experienced as a trickle would halt to an occasional drop.

I think the recent introduction of shards, the mighty tokens, and non-competitive PvE events show that devs are still looking for ways to address the 4* dilution problem without disrupting the game economy. As they have noted, they aren’t finished implementing shards and/or mighty tokens into game rewards yet, and I think it is wise they are taking a more cautious approach. If they went all in from the get go and decided to rollback rewards since it was affecting their bottom line, they would take a lot of heat. Instead, they can monitor how people are utilizing the new shard system and consider carefully where to expand them in the current reward scheme. And I hope they continue to explore successful 4*/5* pairings to make more 5* characters relevant. I think a fun, robust PvP meta is one that allows for a variety of team compositions, whether they be 5*/5* pairings or 4*/5* pairings.

While I am quite aware that the current PvP meta isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, I have been enjoying it. And I am sure I am not the only one.

Edit to add: Original discussion found in Northstar Character thread.

2

I agree the tiers should be able to mesh together. The problem comes in when a team with a 4* and 3* stomps all dual 4* teams. Or when a 5* and 4* team stomps all dual 5* teams. If you work hard to get to the 5* tier and have over 50% of that tier available to play you should not struggle with a team that has a 4* on it.

There should be a level of risk in running one of your characters from the tier below the other not additional security.

3

I think it’s down to players having different visions of what MPQ should be. I think this is what I gathered:

  1. New players should be able to catch up with all 4* characters within 2 years, or even sooner. However, due to dilution, they will never be able to catch up without spending a lot of money.

  2. It is compulsory to have high level 4* in order to be competitive.

  3. 5* should automatically bulldoze 4* easily and without much difficulty.

The flaws, that I think, with this is:

  1. It is assumed that the goal of all players is to champ all the characters in the game, which is obviously not true, based on the comment by the devs about players’ playstyles.

  2. It is assumed that all players should be able to do this without spending a lot of money or without playing competitively. This also mean that players playing for progression rewards should be able to champ 4* characters as fast as competitive players.

  3. It is assumed that all players are playing for speed; therefore, players are only interested in characters that ends a match fast. I’m sure it has been mentioned by many here that MPQ is all about speed.

When I learn about this forum, I saw a lot of comments about how it is impossible to catch up with 4* tiers and roster slot costs without spending a lot of money. Two years later, over 80 of my 4* is either champed or at 13 covers, without spending any form of money on this game. I have excessive HP income. This made me doubt what some of the vets are saying about not catching up because my experience contradicted what they are saying.

As for MPQ is about speed, I played 4-6 hours after the first bracket of SCL 7 opened a number of times due to work. After I did the initial 4 clears, I still end up with position 5X. I really doubt that majority of the players are all about speed.

As for dilution problem, I believe that how the dev approach this problem depends on how majority of the players play the game. Players’ behaviours have effects on how the devs solve the problem. If majority of the players are only interested in playing and leveling up their favourite characters as high as possible, then, in a sense, shards help them with dilution. However, if the belief is that all players should be able to champ it all, then shards is not helpful.

I’m not sure if it’s helpful or detrimental if the devs share how players play the game. If it contradicts how the players in here play the game, I think they might be demoralised and quit the game.

4

I generally agree with that but I can imagine IM40, Mags and Blackwidow 3* should have no problem competing against a Mysterio and Talos team :slight_smile:

5

To be honest, I don’t think you are the minority at all.

I think your attitude towards the game and which characters you want reflect a significant portion of the player base. For example, OML frequently features in fan favorite tokens even though he is considered competitively sub-par on the forum. Casual players are probably Marvel fans who have their own personal favorite characters and focus on collecting them regardless of their competitive value and are not overly concerned about champing every character in the game.

Since they are playing casually, it’s likely they are not familiar with or care all that much about the meta. It’s only when a design is glaringly jarring such as 5* Hulk or 4* Emma that they may regret the time they invested in pursuing the character. Or perhaps they find some unique set up that works for them.

They might put a bit more effort in the game when a personal favorite is released but since they normally play casually, they probably don’t expect to walk away with top rewards. Maybe for them an extra cover or two is a sufficient victory. And now with shards, they can work towards getting more covers of that character.

I, however, am not a casual player. I play the game quite competitively and find the current meta a lot more fun and engaging. 2019 saw an abundance of well designed, fun 4* characters and new events featuring opportunities to win more 4* covers so I am left scratching my head by what is meant when someone says “the 4* tier is dead.”

Yes, the removal of bonus heroes was a significant loss, some 4* characters bring nothing interesting in terms of game play and dilution is a significant problem but I don’t see how that adds up to arguing a whole tier is no longer relevant.

We are going to have to agree to disagree here.

I don’t have an issue with inter-tier team synergy being the better option. I think synergy should take precedence over tier status. In fact, if the game dynamics operated in the way you wished, then one could make a legitimate argument that “the 4* tier is dead” since 4s would be ineffective against all 5 characters. Ideally, there should be a healthy balance between 5*/5* teams and 4*/5* teams. I believe this allows more people to participate in PvP.

I do agree their should be a level of risk running a lower tiered character but I imagine we would disagree on the parameters of such a risk.

For example, Kitty/Grocket can take out most 5* teams with out much fuss. However, they are rendered almost completely useless by Black Suit Spider-man and are not a major threat to those running the Okoye/Thor (with Okoye tanking). I think that is sufficient but I know there are those who argue that since Black Suit Spider-man isn’t a top tier character, the user incurs a greater risk utilizing him to counter Gritty and so don’t find it a worthy solution.

6

I didnt say all 4*'s should be ineffective vs 5*'s. I just feel that a team of a 5* and a 4* should not trump 90% of dual 5* teams.

I have 11 5*'s champed. My best teams are never dual 5*'s or even three 5*'s in simulator. My most reliable offensive/defensive team is a 5* with two 4*'s. Certain 4*'s being that good are more in line with thinking that the 5* tier is dead. If there are combinations of 4* characters that can easily beat any combination of 5*'s, why progress your roster beyond 4* at all?

7

For 4* players, especially those that aren’t going into the 5* tier anytime soon (if ever), 4* releases remain relevant. This seems obvious, but maybe it needs to be said.

If a 4* release is relevant to 5* players, and/or relevant to hyper-competitive play, those are both interesting and worth briefly noting in the respective character thread. However, I don’t think this is the standard by which a 4* character’s mechanics should be primarily judged.

Dilution of the 4* tier remains a weighty concern for 4* players. Although it affects many aspects of the game, my personal preference is for this to be a separate topic of conversation from individual characters.

8

So who is your 3rd 4* in this team? Im40 is a top 3 3* character easily on most people’s list magneto is top 10 most likely. Give Talos and Mysterio (a wildly underrated character imo) any top 10 4* as a 3rd and it will stomp the 3*'s.

9

The problem with talking about this topic as a broad generalisation is that there are sub tiers of players within the different * tiers. I always think there are basically from the 3* tier upwards 3 distinct sub-sects in each one ranging from shallow to medium to deep levelled/advanced rosters. Depending on where you are in these phases depends on what problems you face. Ruling out an entire tier will cause different problems based upon where you are. Reaching the 5* tier depends a lot on the champion rewards you could reap from the 3* tier, progressing in the 5* tier I would suggest depends a lot on the 4* champion rewards you reap.

Even players who advance to the 5* tier are likely going to have to rely on their better 4* to some degree (as referenced by tiomono above) due to lack of a broad roster choice. Champ Kitty? Well done! What use is she without R4G? It is no different to when you went up to the 4* tier with a few champs but still used Dr. Strange for PvE clearing. There are phases that players go along and I imagine that the 4* tier is probably the one that is the most realistic target for the majority of players. I remember as a champed 2* but no champed 3* player thinking how fundamentally unfair Iron Fist + Luke Cage was when they had that attack & protect tile for nothing! After one match I am doing nothing to them and they are punching me in the face! I am sure any champed Bishop feels like that to a player who is “just in” the 5* tier whereas more advanced rosters will just laugh him off unless he is max champed. Tiers within tiers.

What I took from the Bbigler “experiment” is that you can fast track if you streamline but I suspect that without the broad 4* roster needed to churn champ rewards he would not have progressed as anywhere near the pace in going up the 5* ladder itself.

If I am honest my solution to making the 4* “relevant” again to 5* players would be a return in some form of vaulting but I dunno how that would go down and whether the “12 latest” is the right formula - if 5* players cover these characters with less effort to use as 5* champ reward batteries/feeders they might be happier at having Northstar’s and Wolfsbane’s who don’t even register let alone move any needles.

10

The 4 tier isn’t going anywhere since the devs had no interest in a 6* tier, and they can’t just push out 5’s unless they decide, I guess, to really ratchet up the pressure on top players while effectively releasing characters that 85-90% of the players will never, ever complete.

There have always been bad 4’s (and 5’s, and 3’s). The release order is not a constant slope upwards in power. Maybe the next 4 will be another “cheap multiple packets of dmg” person that Okoye can enhance, maybe they’ll passively generate 10 green per turn or something.

Even some (not all) 4’s that aren’t meta can be useful or at least fun to use. Some are good in player’s hands, garbage in the AI’s.

But of course the devs keep pushing out characters. Every time people complain there are too many, it doesn’t matter, slow down etc. I’ve done it. But the release train never stops.

Each character increases your roster slot need by 1. Every single player who wants to roster that person, anyone who isn’t so casual that they don’t care about who they roster, needs to find a slot for them. The base need the game establishes is “roster everyone” although the ROI on even that baseline is constantly dropping with each new character. It’s a couple years between 4* essential turns for Classic 4’s, the crash cycle is 450+ days long, you only miss out on 2 CP every 90 days if you didn’t roster someone (from DDQ). But if you care about at minimum not being locked out of nodes, you need a roster slot.

And then there’s the iso crunch, and cover need (maybe it makes you play harder or whatever, pull more). Each new person adds that as well and keeps the balance of rewards vs needs tipped in favor of needing more stuff.

IMO the true question is not if the tier is dead. The questions (which are pretty personal to each player) are:

  1. How much do you care about this character?
  2. Does it seem fun or interesting or motivating to complete them?
  3. How much money will you spend as you do that?

And then the heart of it: Why are you finishing the character? Which comes back around to “does it seem fun” etc.

I think it’s personal to each player. If the 4 tier is dead to you maybe it’s time to move on? I don’t know. I can’t imagine the game evolving past it ever, they will just keep doing this same cycle of stuff as long as they can.

11

You can have Namor for 3rd or Emma perhaps :slight_smile:

12

overall overall the 4* tier is prettty vibrant. Lots of fun dynamic releases in the last year. I also appreciate the different pvp formats that make allow different combos to shine.

The main issue from my perspective is better roster/tier sorts and or preload combos.

Unless you have a PhD in mpq chars, it’s incredibly hard to search and select out of 100+,200+,300+ slots.

if you have all the 4* champed or at a usable level, you’d be hard pressed to know all the combinations and who counters what? Someone had to remind me that I had a usable quake that would negate jugg gritty combos. In the current event.

yes players need to know their roster but the devs can do a better rob of making it easier to experiment and learn the boundaries of your roster.

during the first half of most events, I really enjoy using 5/4 combos to learn power sets when it’s easy and convenient.

But I switch to dual 5s because i don’t want to leave a 4* out that can be countered with a fast mirror match or another pair that nullifies.

13

I sort of begrudgingly like Namor…that man can blow a horn.

14

Too many characters is a definite issue. 202 now? Who can remember what they do at a certain point?

There is definitely a diminishing return on adding characters that don’t do much or do convoluted things. People like to think about who they want in the game in terms of favorite Marvel characters, but odds seem pretty good that you won’t use them because of their powerset regardless of how much you like them, assuming you are trying to minimize game time etc (and some people just can’t win because they’re just plain bad).

No one posts “what powers do you want to see in the game” threads, which is kind of interesting to note. It’s all about “I want Throg, or Omega Red, or whoever”.

There’s no good answer to the level of confusion in trying to remember (around) 600 powers divided among 202 characters. You can take characters into DDQ or review them or whatever, but ultimately the confusion just ends up strengthening the approach of “just always use what works best” which ultimately results in less variety in the game than you might expect given how many characters there are.

15

Namor’s not Talos level bad, his kit’s just a bit meh. He doesn’t do anything particularly well so it’s hard to justify bringing him along, even when boosted.

16

My playground is always the BigE in DDq but that is as much to satisfy comic book geekery as gameplay. I’m not particularly convinced the original Defenders line-up have any useful synergy but I’ll play that sucker anyway. So from that point - now we are getting Alpha Flight I will want more Alpha Flight and I will use them at least in one node. But that isn’t really a good basis to justify more dilution.

17

I love the 4* tier and frankly would prefer to stay in it indefinitely. I have no discernible desire to move to the 5* tier, but fear I will have to make that hard decision shortly as I am very near finally champing the 4* tier in its entirety.

In full disclosure, however, I’m a devout PvE player and only dabble in PvP (usually I wait for the first season to flip and then only play to the 4* cover in Sim and the 10-pack in season rewards and I’m done), so that absolutely affects my opinion of the tiers compared to avid PvP players.

18

I can definitely agree that what you want out of the game completely impacts this discussion. It just feels off to me that in versus events 90% of the 5* tier champed struggles against teams that include certain unboosted 4*'s.

19

I suspect however that this is actually a 5* player caused problem. If you start with Champed 5* MMR then you might see the odd 4* roster if you are lucky but your opponent’s are other 5* players. So it is 5* players who are using these characters in ways that is annoying because 4* players shouldn’t be on your radar. If as a 4* player I use Bishop it is because I have no other weapons available to me. But I doubt you are seeing my roster which tops out at 360. So it is 5* players who need to ween themselves off of using 4* characters as far as I can work out this issue.

20

BTW - I caveat the above that if 5* players come in and say they can see 4* teams no problem all the time and it is 4* players who are the issue - I don’t have their MMR and I would believe them 100%. That just doesn’t line up with what I know about how the game works generally.

P.S. None of the above should in anyway be construed as any negative comments towards 5* players. We all play to win, right? Well accept Talos and grills…