Is the 5* tier balanced?

Marvel Puzzle Quest MPQ General Discussion
1

Not that I am in favor of nerfing OML but I believe the 5* tier is currently not balanced. Was actually going to save this analysis for another day, but in lieu of the Nerf OML discussion it seems more fruitful to discuss the issue more fully here. So let’s not beat around the bush and dive right into the issue, shall we?

First and foremost, it’s quite clear Old Man Logan currently rules the roost and for quite a few reasons:

  • He has the best healing in the game
  • He currently is the best defensive 5* character as well
  • His “drawbacks” are less likely to benefit the enemy team
  • He is more versatile than most other 5* characters
  • He is practically every character’s “best friend”

Often the most common vulnerabilities cited in analysis of OML are:

  • It takes time to set up his transformation
  • He can be stunned

I believe the first “vulnerability” is actually a red herring. Quite often OML is more than capable of surviving long enough to acquire the AP required to transform. Furthermore, he does not actually need to transform to bring the pain. A bit more on this later.

Next up, the Silver Surfer

*Cannot be stunned
*Has the highest health
*Best Multi-AP generator
*Second cheapest attack ability (although Spidey requires some hoops to get the full effect)

Often the most common vulnerabilities cited in analysis of SS are:
*His cosmic beam is underpowered
*He randomly produces charged tiles
*He actively needs to acquire AP to heal

The Phoenix

*Best AoE attack in the game
Fastest hard hitting 5 character in game (good for quick matches and shield hops)
*Able to revive after being downed once
*Best single AP generator and critical tile maker

Often the most common vulnerabilities cited in analysis of JGPX are:
*Weak on defense (especially when not paired with OML)

Black Suit Spider-Man

*Strike Tile Reduction master
*Cheapest attack (although needs to be set up for full effect)
Best Stunner in the 5 tier
*Invisibility

Often the most common vulnerabilities cited in analysis of BSSM are:
*No health regeneration
*Has to jump through some hoops to get full effect for attacks

Green Goblin

*Strongest attack in the game
**Goblin King fortify ability and countdown tile reduction
*Strongest strike tile in the game
*Strongerst protect tiles in the game
*Strongest red attack power in the game
Only 5 character with AP theft ability
*Most versatile power set

Oten the most common vulnerablities cited in analysis of GG are:

  • No health regneration
  • Black power vulenerability (although with his Goblin King fortify ability, not sure how much of a vulnerability it actually is??)

Now let’s take a look at how each character currently stands in terms of different abilities:

Versatility

  1. Green Goblin (That purple!)
  2. OML (To transform or not to transform, that my friends is the question)
  3. Spidey (Stun and invisibility, now you see me, now you don’t)
  4. Phoenix (Let me generate some red and oh match 5, buff/nerf time)
  5. Silver Surfer (?)

Damage Output

  1. Phoenix
  2. Green Goblin
  3. OML
  4. Spidey
  5. Silver Surfer

Speed (in terms of taking down a whole teams and ending matches)

  1. Phoenix
  2. OML
  3. Green Goblin
  4. Spidey
  5. Silver Surfer

Defense

  1. OML
  2. Green Goblin
  3. Spidey
  4. Phoenix
  5. Silver Surfer

Support

  1. OML
  2. Phoenix
  3. Green Goblin
  4. Spidey
  5. Silver Surfer

Health

  1. OML
  2. Phoenix
  3. Silver Surfer
  4. Spidey
  5. Green Goblin

Now to briefly go into my thought process for each ranking:

Versatility: With his purple ability, Green Goblin obviously walks away with having the most tools in his skill set. Sure you might ask “Why would you not use the red?” but still he has some other nice surprises should you get bored of simply bombing people to smithereens all the time. Next, while people often focus the topic of conversation on his transformation, OML still packs quite a punch with his uber-reputation Living Legend. Especially useful with characters that creat attack tiles. Spidey has the “shall I stun you now or later” option which provides potential defensive options against incoming attacks.

Damage Output: When it comes to AoE damage, Phoenix takes the cake. Next up you have Green Goblin with that nasty black and potentially equally nasty red bomb combo. As many already know, OML is no stranger to bringing the pain either, producing decent strike tiles when allies use a power and crazy attacks when in full attack mode. Spidey has a decent green attack that can be combo’d with his blue. Silver Surfer’s cosmic beam cannot do enough damage to take out any of the 5* even if you saved up 30 red AP. Yup.

Speed: Phoenix takes this one too. That AoE damage coupled with her red attack power that generates strike tiles and pink that generates red tiles is going to end things pretty quickly. Next up is a toss up between OML and Green Goblin but since OML has a decent AoE himself and usually can finish off those that survive it rather quickly I’m giving it to him. Spidey and Surfer bring up the rear with their single target attack abilities.

Defense: OML with his crazy old man healing, strike tile generation and yellow AP collection FTW. Try to take him down first and watch as he heals away all your hits. Save him for last and lose a few teammates if not your whole team. Those that tell you otherwise are probably running an OML themselves. Green Goblin comes next, although if you are running an OML/JGPX team you will be largely focused on AP denial of black and purple to send that Goblin packing. Spidey is a bit of a wild card while Silver Surfer might prolong a match if he manages to heal.

Support: OML by far. I know it might sound funny to think of him as a support character but OML synergizes well with so many characters (of the top of my head, IF, SW, Carnage, Iceman, JG and JGPX, BSSM, Green Goblin, Rhulk, Ghost Rider, Quake, 4* Punisher) they might as well call him Crazy Uncle Striketiles man. Oh, you just fired an ability, here have some strike tiles. Got some attaack tiles out? Let me Wow our enemies with my Legendary reputation. No worries, I can take the hits, you just sit back and relax and look pretty. Phoenix takes second because she is able to strengthen friendly tiles and weaken enemy ones. Green Goblin comes next since he can fortify friendly tiles and lower countdown tiles for free although you can make a case for Spidey being in third with his ability to neautralize strike tiles. Silver Surfer on the other hand, has AP generation but it will cost you 13 black AP and won’t guarantee you will get the AP you need. He pairs well with a handful of characters, particularly young Jean Grey and XFDP if you decide to take on other 5* teams.

Health: While Silver Surfer has the highest health of all the 5* you have to remember that OML is more than likely regenating over 7,000 HP a match and that most advanced players actually prefer to run Phoenix at low health since she regenerates 55% of it again to unleash her fury. Since both OML and Phoenix do not need to actively gather AP to regenarate health I rate them higher than Silver Surfer.

Why is Silver Surfer the outlier?
This is just speculation on my part but since SS was the first 5* I assume they used him as the base from which they started building up the other 5* characters. He has all the basic markings of a 5*:

*High match damage and health
*A unique skill
*A drawback to his power

However, since he was the base all next iterations could only go up and boy did they go up fast!

Is OML overpowered?
Yes and No. In the current state of the game, yes. He pairs well with practically all the decent 4* and some three 3* too. Even a level 375 OML has enough fire power to take down a full levelled Surfer or Phoenix(of course depending on build). He and Phoenix are king and queen of MPQ land (echoes of XF/Thor) and he also goes well together with BSSM which I find ironic considering Spidey is supposed to be the rock to his scissors and I can definitely see him being a pain with Green Goblin considering that fortify skill.

Which brings me to the no part. Actually, there simply aren’t enough viable Spideys and Goblins about to counter OML. Yet. As Babrino mentioned, Spidey and Goblin make a great counter to OML/Phoenix (as much as that make the fanboy in me die a million deaths) and Spidey and OML would make a great counter to anyone running OML.

Final thoughts
Strange isn’t it? The one character that could justifiably be OP in terms of comic logic is instead made the 5* whipping boy. OML and Phoenix are the killer combo and Spidey/Goblin (smh) are the new challengers to the throne but where Silver Surfer goes, he goes alone. Sure, him and Phoenix don’t make a bad pair but the chemistry isn’t really there (who gets to fire the red ability?) Considering the nature of his power set, it is actually quite difficult to imagine a partner that can enhance “him”. If you try the stun strategy against OML that some players recommend, you are basically sacrificing his heal (yeah, I know TUs but I can tell you now OML and Phoenix don’t need TU assistance to take down Surfer).

I think its rather obvious that the development team have an ongoing love affair with Wolverine which is all fine and good but I rather it not come at the expense of game balance and comic-lore plausibility. I guess, in short, buff Silver Surfer lol

But of course, if anyone else has ideas on how to bring balance to the for…wrong universe..the 5* tier or wish to contest my observations, by all means! Do you think the 5* tier is balanced?

2

I think the 5* tier is more balanced than all the others because at the end of the day any maxed 5* is going to have you winning battles really quickly just through their match damage. The same can’t be said for the other tiers.

3

Pretty much this. It isn’t balanced because obviously there are a couple much better than the others - but the entire tier is balanced compared to the others.

I worry less about the tier that has six characters than I do of the much larger tiers. Why do they keep releasing characters when no one is going to be using Cho/IW/Elektra/FalCap/MrF/SL? Why does 3* IM get a great fix, while 3* Rags/3* Vision/3* QS (didn’t he get a fix?) still remain almost unusable after their fixes?

Just writing down these lists makes me realize there is likely little (no?) play-testing as these characters get rolled out, with sort of random abilities just thrown on to whatever tier they were originally slotted into; as quickly as they can to keep trying to make money rather than try for any balance or fixes. That sounds a bit meaner that I meant it to…but then I think on it again and I’m not sure I’m wrong.

4

Right. Compare having a maxed OML/Phoenix vs. SS/BSS to a maxed JeanBuster vs. IW/Elektra, or maxed Cage/IF vs. Vision/QS. In the 5* tier you can have very similar amounts of success with any 2 characters of the same level, while the same is definitely not true of the other tiers.

5

5* are OP but they are hard to get and hard to max out. As far as 5s are comparable with other 5 i am fine with it.
About Logan, yes, he is OP, especially his regen and passive, but during regening, he has 1 active skill only (that end the round).

Hes a good tank but his power is limited.

On the other hand, Phoenix has revive ability that activates OP AoE skill. I have both of them on similar level and i must admit they are equal (well, power of cover depends on other “teammates”.

On the other side, Spider man seems to me like a trash. I have only blue power so i am not sure, but according to wiki, hes weaker - no heal like previous 5*, wierd skills etc.

6

If we look at why and how they implemented the 5* tier, we can see why it is necessary that the 5* tier is not balanced.

First, rate of obtainment: If you pull 5 LT’s a week, it’ll take you over a year and a half to max out a five star if you’re lucky.
Second, difficulty in obtainment: Lt’s are only rewarded after grinding…

So with this, how do you keep reasonable people playing? By the tantalizing promise of overwhelming power. How do you keep those that already have a 5* playing? With the tantalizing promise of overwhelming power.

If they were balanced, they wouldn’t inspire people to play. People will cut their arm off at the chance of being exclusively OP in a social game.

…Admin edited to remove potentially offensive content.

7

I think you have put Phoenix in a couple of categories far ahead her real utility. For the example, why you say she is the fastest hard hitter ?!?! Her red is 9 Ap and hits for the same damage than SS (plus strike tiles), and for the green AoE she has to die first and then come back (and green still damages her team mates), so or you enter the match with 1/3 life or something like that or you are going to need some time to get her killed. GG on the other hand doesnt need to meet any condition to start killing chars right from the beginning (+2 black and with two matches, just two turns, you launch the glider for 22k!, in two turns he can kill any 4, +1 purple and three purple matches and you have three red bombs).

More things I don’t agree on, why is OML the best denfensive 5? Again, GG is far better in defense, there is no way the AI can play him wrong, well yeah the color of the bombs is random, but even then he is better than OML. OML is in fact terrible in defense you just need to control black, then you kill him last when he regenerates less and he is useless. Even Spidey is more dangerous in defense than OML (OML, Phoenix and SS are very easy to beat in defense).

For me it is obvious there are three groups of 5s right now

Top tier
OML
GG

Good tier
Phoenix
Spidey

Super Lame
SS

And there is quite difference between each tier. But even though OML is very good, he is the best for PvE, I still think the only 5 that can be comsidered OP is Green Goblin. Both his Black and purple have some disadvantages BUT then yellow eliminates those problems almost completely ( the oponent has just one turn to match the bombs or the slider). Probably GG should have had just 30k life at 450 to compensate for his immensely good attacking powers (8 Ap for 22k and 10 Ap for 30k !!! and the bombs can hit more than one player)

8

I can only speak on OML, Phoenix and Surfer since those are the characters I have serious experience with a high cover level.

I agree with the OP’s feelings about OML and Phoenix. In my eyes these characters are pretty evenly powered each with their own strengths. OML is better overall for the game but he’s by no means far enough ahead of Phoenix to demand any kind of buff on Phoenix.

How to buff Surfer?

Black:
No changes. This skill is incredibly strong at 5 covers. The small risk of destruction is worth the massive AP generation and the ability to place it where it can destroy enemy tiles. It’s a shame this skill doesn’t truly shine until 5 covers though. I wouldn’t be against a minor AP price drop to 12 or 11 but I don’t feel it’s absolutely necessary either.

Red:
I might be in the minority here but I consider the damage output to be fine. It’s very low for 5* tier but Silver Surfer’s role is clearly intended to be support. That being said, his red is a TERRIBLE charged tile generator. This skill really needs to generate either 4 charged tiles at max covers.

Blue:
This is where Surfer fails as a character. Stun immunity is fantastic but the active is abysmal in comparison to Phoenix and OML. 12 AP (up to 4 turns worth of dedicated matches) to heal about 1/3rd of his health? Awful. In my opinion you could drop this skill down to as low as 7 AP or maybe even 6 AP and it would be fine.

Would these changes truly balance Surfer to be used on par with OML and Phoenix?

No. It’s hard to make a support character feel on par with big damage dealers without just turning it into a damage dealer as well. I do think my proposed changes for surfer would elevate him properly into 5* tier though.

9

Okay, so fair warning, my 5* roster isn’t maxed… currently:

5/2/4 Phoenix (420)
2/3/5 OML (405)
1/2/3 BSSM (345)
3/3/5 SS (300)
1/1/1 GG (300)

But here’s my $.02 on the “balance” of the 5* tier:

I think at max level, they are probably fairly well balanced. The thing is, a slim percentage of the player base has them maxed. The imbalance comes in their individual usability at early levels.

-OML becomes on par with (or maybe better than) about any 4* in the game when you get him to 1/1/1 and take him to 300. He absorbs damage, shields any R/Y/Bk user, puts out auto strike tiles, and dishes out a ton of damage when transformed. Each additional cover only makes him more badass.

-GG is very usable at 1/1/1, because he is a specialist and fills his role very well. That said, at 1/1/1 he can’t be a focal point of the team (OML pretty much can be)

-BSSM dies at 1/1/1.

-SS is a clunky, AP-starved deadweight at 1/1/1

-Phoenix is a squishy character with a terrible purple power, a CD that will never go off, and a decent damage dealing red power at 1/1/1.

I think that a damage-dealing Phoenix build at 405 (5/5/1, say) is definitely superior to OML at the same level in terms of offensive firepower. My SS maxes out at 420 (I haven’t leveld him yet, though), but I can definitely feel a difference when I play with him now vs when he had fewer covers, he is a solid character now. The only real bonus to BSSM’s extra covers so far has been a little more survivability, I’m still underwhelmed with him. And my Goblin is 1/1/1, so I can’t say much there.

Again… though… for the people who are playing at the 3 - 5 cover 300 - 330 5* transition range… there is little balance, OML reigns supreme (aside from the people who draw a suicide Logan 0/0/3 build). And since it’s such a slow & painful transition, I think that a rebalance in that range would benefit the game. I’m not suggesting an OML nerf, just give the others a bit more punch at the lower levels.

10

But how can you say at 450 all are balanced? How can be SS balanced compared with GG? Can you elaborate on that? How one guy that does 8k damage for 7 and heals 30% of his life for 12 can be balanced with someone who does 22k for 8 or 30k for 10. OR with another one that heals 3k each turn for free?!?!? (and is also a serious hitter) Or one that after death/resurrection does 16k AoE for 9?

The only think you can say is that at 450 they all are better than any maxed-buffed 4, but in no way they are balanced between them.

11

I made a suggestions post on how to fix Silver Surfer, which is very relevant to this thread.

https://forums.505go.com/discussion/42046

12

Well, I can’t say that at 450 they are balanced, because I don’t have any at 450. And, I didn’t say they were all balanced, said I “THINK” at 450 they are “PROBABLY” “FAIRLY WELL” balanced… LOL, way to take a definitive stand, jobob. But seriously, I thought I stated clearly that I can’t really comment on max level, and the point of my post was that there is a DEFINITE imbalance early on, and that the imbalance gets less severe the more covers you get.

I do agree that it’s difficult to compare them directly, since their abilities are so different. But they can be balanced and each have their own roles to fill. At 450, I think you can still beat any 5* with any other (though, again, I haven’t played with a single 450 yet).

Going back to my point above… if you have a 1/1/1 OML, it doesn’t matter much what covers you get from there, so long as you are adding levels. My feeling on GG is that you can say something similar about him. That is NOT balanced with the progression of the other 5s. The added covers themselves can make a HUGE difference with the other 5s (not as sure about BSSM since I only have 6 for him), and you can have a 400+ SS or Phoenix who isn’t great, based on which covers you have. A 1/1/4 OML isn’t THAT different from a 2/3/2, 4/1/1, or 4/3/1. A 4/1/1 Phoenix plays VERY differently from a 1/4/1, 1/1/4. Specific covers matter.

I don’t think the 5* tier should be about which specific covers you are getting, I think it should be more about total covers. And that’s the imbalance I’ve seen with regards to OML versus some of the others. I can’t speak to level 450, but I can say that they are a lot closer at 420 than they were at 330.

13

I would go a different way on how to make surfer be on par with the other 5s. One small change. Make his black cost 6 ap, and everything else stays the same. I mean, look at what it did for IM40. He doesn’t need to be a damage dealer, he just needs to be a better support if that’s to be his role. Being the best ap generator in the 5 tier gives people a reason to put him in their team and mitigates the high cost of his blue.

14

Well maybe 6 is even too good, but I agree, if SS is a support caharacter his abilities as a support character need to be good, and his black ability right now it is Just meh, not even at 5 covers is good (pay 12 to slowly get 20 over 4 turns, Im40 or switch abilities are so much better and they are 3s!!).

His problem now is that neither his damage ability, his heal ability, his ap generation ability or his charged tiles generation abilities are good. He does nothing well, he is mediocre in all of them.

So black should cost 9, but make the tile really indestructible (common devs, a match4 destroys the tile! Is this a joke?), so it is 100% guaranteed that it will always generate all the AP. I would also raise a little bit the damage and the healing though. With these small changes he would be much more usable as support for other 5s (even though black is a very strong color in 5 land right now).

Or make him generate much more charged tiles with blue and red, but just on red and blue tiles, and also make black get charged tiles from a bigger distance, so this way he would be charging himself all the time and firing red and blue a lot more.